Thursday, 23 May 2019

Trojan Horse by Martin Bates and Ilhan Parlayan of Martin Bates Design

Martin Bates and Ilhan Parlayan of Martin Bates Design ( are making a Trojan horse for 'Who are ya?' in Tate Exchange at Tate Modern, London August 6-11.

The horse already looks beautiful but it isn't finished yet, updates will be posted as they come through.

Early construction of the Trojan horse by
Construction of the Trojan horse by with a view of its post box.
Another view of the Trojan horse by

The workshop at

Martin Bates writes about his business and the threat it is under right now


My name is Martin Bates. I run a furniture design and manufacturing business in Tottenham.

I started the business in 1982 in a rented/shared workshop in Holloway but in 1998, needing more space and not wanting to keep paying rent for premises I didn’t own, I decided to buy an industrial unit on the Peacock Industrial Estate. This was a great improvement for the business although it was hard to pay the mortgage with a young family. But I thought at least I would end up owning the workshop and having something to provide me with a pension.

The Peacock Estate contains a lot of what is left of the North London furniture industry and we developed a collaborative relationship where I would buy wood from DW Woodworks, metalwork from CD metalworks, get finished items sprayed at Florite and get carving, upholstery and leatherwork done at The Collectors Workshop. All of these processes could take place without motorized transport as we could move jobs on trolleys from unit to unit.

North Tottenham is not a rich or smart part of London. We have worked here for 20 years with high levels of crime, riots and poor infrastructure but have managed to maintain a productive and growing business on an estate which employs up to 240 people. We had no help from the council and heard little from them until we got news of the High Road West masterplan.


In January 2014 I arranged a meeting with Sarah Lovell and Abdul Qureshi at the planning department to discuss the implications. I was told that I would have to give up my workshop but that the council didn’t want to break up the businesses on the estate and was looking for an alternative site to relocate us to within the borough. This reassured me as there is so little industrial space available within the North Circular and my business would not work if we had to move further from central London.

The council organised meetings with the local community being asked for their responses to the Masterplan. I went to the meetings with other freeholders from the Peacock Estate but we found very little to help us and felt more and more like an obstacle that needed to be removed and, whenever we asked for our protests to be heard were told that was not appropriate at that meeting.

So we asked for an extra meeting with Stephen Kelly from the planning department to discuss our future. He listened to our concerns and was sympathetic but acknowledged that we didn’t have much chance of avoiding CPOs. He told us to submit our objections to the council’s Area Action Plan which I did ( 6th March 2014 ).

I spent the next few months looking for alternative workspace nearby but found nothing as so many industrial units had already been demolished to make way for the new stadium. At least, I thought, I had a few years to find an alternative.

So I was shocked a few months later when Mr Qureshi told me and my neighbors at CD metalwork that they now planned to proceed with the northern section of the plan and may need us to move out in 6 months to provide an access road. I had at least 6 months work programmed, employees to manage and was told that the council’s search for alternative workspace had achieved nothing (personally I don’t believe any serious effort was made by them). In addition Mr Qureshi told us that we would be compulsory purchased if we didn’t accept the council’s offer, which would be based on the governments CPO calculations for industrial space (which do not reflect the scarcity of factory space in the area). He said we would be better off accepting the councils offer and moving quickly rather than losing money like Archway Metals, the local business who fought against a CPO and spent a huge amount on legal fees before losing (and incidentally, having their factory destroyed in what appeared to be an arson attack).

It now looked as though my business would have to close down and I would lose my investment. I cannot afford to retire, especially since renting my workshop was to be my main pension so, at 60 years old I would have to start a new career. I was stressed and depressed.


Suddenly, nothing happened. We heard no more from the council for years. I didn’t know how long we had left at the Peacock Industrial Estate and couldn’t plan for the future. Businesses on the estate were becalmed, unable to invest in equipment or staff as they didn’t know how long they could employ them. I had to turn down a young man who wanted to do an apprenticeship because I couldn’t guarantee to employ him for the three years of his college course. My business which had been growing for over 30 years hit a plateau. I have stopped spending money on the building, stopped investing in machinery and stopped taking on new employees as I can’t see that the investment would be justified.


Over the last 30 years I have employed and given work-experience/training to over 30 people, many of whom started with limited knowledge/experience and many of whom moved on to start their own businesses or to work in more senior positions in larger companies. We have taught them furniture making, design, fitting, some business management and developed their personal and social skills. This is the kind of training which is in increasingly short supply and which very rarely flourishes in new developments once the local industrial community has been eradicated. In the modern slash-and-burn style developer-lead schemes the employment which mostly replaces businesses like mine tends to be coffee-making, nail polishing and security, minimum wage jobs with no career path ahead. It took a lot of the business on the Peacock Estate two generations to build their businesses which currently employ 230 people. If these businesses go, who can wait two further generations for the next nurturing employment opportunities to evolve

OUR LOSS IS HARINGEYS GAIN We campaigned to stay on the estate and submitted a pre-planning application based on the masterplan but with industrial units below the flats to allow some businesses to remain. This was refused for two main reasons: firstly continuity of building – that it would be difficult to join different sections of the masterplan if they were built by different developers (not an insurmountable problem in modern building technology); and most importantly because, as Sarah Lovell explained, the cost of developing the Love Lane section of the scheme with associated infrastructure investment needed to be subsidized from the profits from the rest of the development.

This illustrates how the council hope to improve the area by harnessing the wealth generated by taking our properties and generating further value by granting residential permission to the developer. They had already skewed the masterplan in their own financial favour by siting the park that provides green space for the tower block residents in the middle of our land thus devaluing our site and using us further to subsidize the neighbouring land packages.

I understand that the council wants to improve the area, build more housing and add to the infrastructure. I understand that they have no money to achieve this and so have to fund it through planning gain. What I find unacceptable is that they can use compulsory purchase to achieve this. If they choose to give their own land to the south of White Hart Lane to a developer in return for flats/improvements that is fair enough but CPOs were originally intended for use to facilitate schemes of national importance, not to generate cash for developers, some of which may be used for infrastructure improvements, at the expense of the people who have owned the site for generations.

Lendlease have now been appointed as the council’s preferred developer and they have approached the businesses on the estate supposedly to help with purchase/relocation. I told them I need a similar workspace in the borough of Haringey and that I want to own it as I have spent years paying off a mortgage in order that I wouldn’t have to pay rent again and would have a rentable asset when I retire. They told me they would do their best to help me but, a while later, I was sent a list of factories, all for rent and all too far away to meet my needs. So, if the High Road West scheme goes ahead, I will lose a business, a capital asset and my pension.

One of my neighbours was recently offered the equivalent of 6 years rent as payment for their unit by the council/Lendlease. If I were to accept a similar offer I could afford to live for 6 years after retirement.

Some council officers think we are against regeneration. This is not true. We are happy to be part of the improvement of an area we know from experience has long needed attention. But we believe we have not been properly consulted and our position is not being properly respected. WE have worked on this estate for up to 80 years. WE bought the properties. WE are the local business community.

Lendlease and the council own nothing here but can flatten our livelihoods for profit. Where is the justice in that?

Wednesday, 22 May 2019

Who are ya? an event in Tate Exchange at Tate Modern in London

Dates: August 6-11 2019
Times: 12-6pm each day
Address: Level 5, Blavatnik Building, Tate Modern, London SE1 9TG
Tate Exchange website:
Who are ya?:
Plan your visit:
This is a free event for all ages, no tickets required just drop in.

Our corner of Tate Exchange for 'Who are ya?' with a view of Blackfriars Bridge and the Thames.

We'll be collaborating with businesses, community groups and individuals affected by the plans discussed in our book 'Tottenham's Trojan Horse?' to create displays, video installations, participatory activities and a conversation area for 'Who are ya?' at Tate Exchange. 'Who are ya?' will reflect on football, identity and art with many other groups and individuals taking part (please see Tate Exchange for details). We were contacted by the organiser because of 'Tottenham's Trojan Horse?' which explores social issues related to the new Tottenham Hotspur football stadium.

Martin Bates and Ilhan Parlayan of Martin Bates Design ( are making a Trojan horse for the event. Click here for more information.

A Trojan horse by is under construction. Updates will be posted here and on a post dedicated to it.

Copies of 'Tottenham's Trojan Horse?' will be on sale in the Tate Modern bookshop during the event.

Information about other Trojan horse activities and displays to come soon.

This post will be updated as information comes through. Information about our book and what we do is in other posts on this blog. You can email us via the contact form or send Amanda Lillywhite a DM on Twitter.

Tottenham's Trojan Horse? by Mark Panton and Amanda Lillywhite. Available at Housmans Bookshop, Foyles and online at Big Cartel.

Tuesday, 1 January 2019

"Tottenham's Trojan Horse?" reviews, events, where to buy, where to borrow and other information

Latest news: we'll be taking part in 'Who are ya?' - an event in Tate Exchange, Tate Modern, London on 6-11 August. Click here for information about what we'll be doing and to find out about the new Trojan horse that is being constructed by Martin Bates Design.

'Tottenham's Trojan Horse?' is available at Housmans Bookshop and Big Cartel.
Dave Morris interviewed on BBC Radio London. Illustration by Amanda Lillywhite.
All the dialogue in 'Tottenham's Trojan Horse?' was taken from research and interviews.
Tottenham's Trojan Horse? is based on one of the case studies in Mark Panton's doctoral thesis about stadium-led regeneration.

The book was published in February 2018 and so far copies have gone to people in 8 countries. Some feedback from social media:

You two have come up with an innovative way to turn research for a dissertation which is often read by a few into a book that will reach many.
The issues the book has raised, of course, are not limited in this case or North London. Mega structures like sports stadiums and mega events like the Olympic Games and World Expo all have complicated impact on urban life. Grass roots movements, citizen participation in the decision-making process and resistance (think the right to the city), all very important indeed.

Qin Shao, author of ‘Shanghai Gone: Domicide and Defiance in a Chinese Megacity
Professor, History Department, The College of New Jersey, USA. 21 February 2018 by email.

Have been looking through this book. Really accessible and easy to follow. Tells a very complicated story very clearly. A must read about how regeneration works these days.
Zena Brabazon,  Haringey Councillor. 14 February, 2018 on Twitter @ZenaBrabazon.

My copy of Tottenham's Trojan Horse has arrived. It chronicles the dispute over the regeneration project linked to the new #THFC stadium. It's as good as I hoped. Features Dave Morris, Claire Kober and various other key Haringey figures.
Andrew Smith, Reader at University of Westminster. 13 February, 2018 on Twitter @AndrewSmithWest

Reviews, Articles and Interviews:

Click here for further information about the research behind 'Tottenham's Trojan Horse?'

Mark Panton wrote about the creation of the book and why he chose a comics format to develop his doctoral thesis on The Graphic Social Science Network blog.

An article on page 6 of the April 2018 edition of Radical News.

"Tottenham's Trojan Horse? - Mark Panton and Amanda Lillywhite Provide Dire Warnings About Gentrification in the Name of Football" by Tom Baker on Broken Frontier.

Mark Panton interviewed by Discovering Tottenham.

Mark Panton interviewed about his research for the Birkbeck Big Ideas podcast.

Mark was interviewed by the following journalists:

David Conn for the Guardian "In the shadow of Spurs’ new stadium local residents fear for future"

Joel Essex for When Saturday Comes "Planning Consent".

Rory Smith for the New York Times "Tottenham Hotspur New Stadium Opens: Is There Room For Everyone?"

Oliver Brown for the Daily Telegraph "Tottenham's New Stadium: Beacon of Light or a Trojan Horse for Gentrification?"

Simon Allin for Enfield Independent "Haringey Council 'should get a better deal with developers '"


Mark Panton received a PhD/ Early Career Public Engagement Award 2018 from Birkbeck College, University of London, for "Tottenham's Trojan Horse?".

Mark shared some details of his project and his involvement with the Awards on the Birkbeck blog.


Past events:

A book launch was held at Housmans Bookshop on April 4 2018 read about it here.

London Radical Bookfair on June 2 2018

We organized an event "Celebrating North Tottenham" at Coombes Croft Library (opposite the new Tottenham Hotspur Football Stadium) on Saturday, June 30, 2018.

Mark gave a talk at Comics Forum's "Progress: A Decade of Comics Scholarship" - part of Thought Bubble 2018 in Leeds.

Mark spoke about the issues within the book at the Football Collective Conference at Hampden Park, Glasgow on 29 November 2018.

Free talk for Birkbeck's Big Ideas by Mark Panton: Have new stadiums in Holloway, Tottenham and Stratford regenerated their local communities? January 15, 2019 at City & Islington College.

Upcoming event:

'Who are ya?' at Tate Exchange, Tate Modern 6-11 August 2019.

Where/how to buy:

Online (we have chosen not to use Amazon)

Big Cartel


Bookmarks, 1 Bloomsbury Street, London WC1B 3QE

Foyles, 107 Charing Cross Road, London WC2H 0DT (in Graphic Novels and in Politics)

Housmans Bookshop, 5 Caledonian Road, Kings Cross, N1 9DX London UK


Left Bank Books Collective, 92 Pike Street, Seattle, WA, USA 98101

Read the book for free:

Bishopsgate Institute, 230 Bishopsgate, London EC2M 4QH.

Birkbeck Library, University of London

Coombes Croft Library (opposite the new Tottenham Hotspur Stadium), Tottenham High Road, London N17 8AG

Contact the authors:

Email Amanda Lillywhite - amanda(AT) substituting @ for (AT)

Amanda Lillywhite on Twitter.

Mark Panton on Twitter.

"Tottenham's Trojan Horse?" was made possible with funding from Birkbeck School of Business, Economics and Informatics, University of London (UK). It was printed by Comic Printing UK.

This post will be updated as new information comes in.

Wednesday, 2 May 2018

Celebrating North Tottenham - an event at Coombes Croft Library

Celebrating North Tottenham was on June 30, 2018. It was held at Coombes Croft Library in Tottenham, London N17. Below are some photos from the day:

There was some wonderful food! This was Ebi's stall.

You can see Holly Casio's zine making workshop behind the high table plus other stalls in the background.

It was great to see everyone chatting together.

Although it was very warm the talks were all well attended (see the original post further down for information about them).

At the end James Massam gave a powerful performance of his poetry.

I made a Trojan Horse for the event, it will stay in the library for a couple more weeks.

Some of the messages written on the horse during the event. Many people wrote of their love for the area and its people.

It was a lovely surprise to find some zines from Holly Casio's workshop posted into the horse.

I found some messages inside the horse as well. Coombes Croft Library plus many of the nearby shops, homes and businesses may be demolished to make way for a fans' walkway from White Hart Lane Station to the new Tottenham Hotspur stadium - part of a Haringey Council development known as High Road West. If the demolitions go ahead it is likely that many local people, who can't afford the new rents or property prices, will be forced out of the area.

The original post about the event

Celebrating North Tottenham will be taking place at Coombes Croft library (opposite the new Tottenham Hotspur Football Stadium) on June 30, 12-4pm. Click here for a link to a Google map.

Information about the event is regularly updated and new items are being added.

Activities for Children
  • Story time and songs with Eleni.
  • Reading Corner.
  • Art table.
Activities for all ages: Children, Teenagers and Adults
  • A free drop-in zine workshop led by Holly Casio. An introduction to the world of zines, looking at some examples of zines and finding ways to tell stories about our lives, homes, and communities. Participants in the workshop will create mini 8 page zines using collage, drawings, and writing. There will also be a chance to look at and buy some of Holly's zines.
  • What do you love about north Tottenham? Write or draw on the Trojan horse or post a letter or a drawing into it. Letters and drawings will be displayed the library and online. (See the end of this post for a drawing of the Trojan horse that's being made for the event.)
Performance poetry by James Massam

Food and Drink
  • Baklava.
  • Rum cake and sorrel drink on Breadline's stall.
  • Vegan/vegetarian and Caribbean food on Ebi's stall:
    a selection of patties, suya plantain, kale salad, sweet potato and daal curry, Quinoa or brown rice, avocado salad, puff puff, banana cake and summer time juices (infused water is free)
    About Ebi (Earth Based Ingredients): we provide home cooked vegan and vegetarian fusion foods with a twist. Our menu offers Gluten, egg, and dairy free options. Seasoned to perfection. We can also offer meat versions for the reluctant tastebuds. Click here for more information.
Talks in the Meeting Room
All talks are free and unticketed but be on time to get a seat - the room is quite small.

  • At 12.15: Haringey Welcome will talk about their campaign for refugees and migrants.
  • At 1.00: Tottenham Community Press will talk about their role in the local area and the broader subject of community media more generally. They will also offer those attending an opportunity to suggest story ideas for future issues and they will feedback on previous issues they have published.
  • At 1.45: Mark Panton, author of "Tottenham's Trojan Horse?", will be in conversation with Faruk Tepeyurt, member of Peacock Industrial Estate Small Business Community, to discuss
  • At 2.30: Margaret Burr will talk about Priscilla Wakefield - a Tottenham Quaker, feminist economist and writer who died in 1832.
  • At 3.15: Breadline London help families to develop a more manageable and sustainable lifestyle. They will talk about their taster sessions.
Things to Buy
  • Breadline London's handmade cards.
  • Holly Casio's zines.
  • "Tottenham Trojan Horse?" book.
  • Plants from Wards Corner Community Coalition.
Information Stalls (and free giveaways)

Birkbeck, University of London - prospectuses, leaflets and giveaway merchandise will be available.

Breadline London (a small community group who support families to raise themselves out of the cycle of hardship and poverty through education and the creation of small businesses). Breadline are on Facebook and Twitter.

Discovering Tottenham - chat with the editor and sign up for the newsletter. You can also pick up free copies of issue 1 and 2 of the printed magazine. Supplies of issue 1 are limited so drop by early if you want one!

Haringey Advice Partnership (provides free information, advice and guidance on a range of issues affecting people living in Haringey)

Haringey Welcome (a refugee and migrant campaign)

One You Haringey (a public health project that aims to support Haringey residents) - will give Carbon Monoxide Tests. People who smoke can get information about cessation services that they offer. They will also test people who don't smoke as this can identify any person who may be inhaling carbon monoxide released from faulty boilers.

Our Tottenham network of individuals and community groups.

Tottenham Community Press.

Tottenham Trees (Part of a global movement to protect our natural heritage) will have free postcards available on the Our Tottenham table.

Please come back for new information about the event.

Come along and write or draw on the Trojan Horse or post your letters or drawings into it.

"Tottenham's Trojan Horse?" can be bought online at Big Green Bookshop and Click here for more information about the book.

Friday, 27 April 2018

Transcript of the conversation between Mark Panton, Martin Ball and Dave Morris at "Tottenham's Trojan Horse?" book launch at Housmans Bookshop

A transcript of the conversation between Mark Panton (MP), Dave Morris (DM) and Martin Ball (MB) is below. The Q&A part of the event is on this link. The event was hosted at Housmans Bookshop in London on April 4 2018. A film of the Q&A is here and an audio recording of the whole event is here.

Click here for more information about "Tottenham's Trojan Horse?" including reviews, upcoming events and how to buy or borrow it.


Introductions by Wail Qasim, Housmans Bookshop.

MP Thanks very much for joining us this evening and thanks very much for Housmans hosting the event as was mentioned the idea really is to kick things off with a bit of a conversation between myself. The book is based on sort of four years of research in the Tottenham area that was one of the case studies. The other case study was in relation to regeneration in East Manchester. So thank you very much this evening to Dave Morris who's been involved with the Our Tottenham network for I think it's probably about five years it's been going. I certainly went along to a meeting in April 2013. It had been going for a few months before then. Dave’s been involved in various activities in the Tottenham area and also thank you to Martin Ball who is also involved with I think he is the chair of the Friends of Downlane Park in Tottenham. So again involved in lots of activities in the community. As Wale said we’ll probably do a conversation between ourselves for 20 to 30 minutes but you know the idea really is that we try and get as many comments in or questions from the floor as possible as well.

So we will start things off now. So perhaps first of all you can tell us a little bit about the formation of Our Tottenham and why it all started up in 2013 and perhaps any links with the stadium.

DM OK, so basically after the riots in 2011 which kind of kicked off in Tottenham and spread around the country there was a march organized by local anti-cuts campaigners and a Turkish organisation in Tottenham. We linked up with people in Hackney and within three days of decided to organise a march we had about 3,000 people at a march to Tottenham Town Hall from Hackney and one of our demands that night, it was called Give Our Kids A Future, one of their demands was apart from the obvious ones of trying to defend public services and facilities and particularly the youth facilities and so on, one of our demands was for community-led regeneration, but other people had other ideas. I think the Mayor of London commissioned a report called It Took Another Riot, which is mentioned in the book, in which a property developer basically recommended that the kind of overhaul of the social engineering throughout Tottenham and to basically gentrify Tottenham and increase land prices and all that kind of stuff. So we didn't know anything about that, but we saw the council come up with a so-called Plan for Tottenham. I don't know when it was, 2012 maybe, and it's a glossy pamphlet and people look at it and say wait a minute. And Spurs were kind of like highly promoted in this plan for Tottenham as a catalyst.

MB They hosted the launch event.

DM Okay. But there was a bit of it which I said that doesn’t look right. It looks like they are going to build a walkway from White Hart Lane station cutting through a council estate to the new Spurs ground. That can't be right that they're knocking down a whole estate and people saying oh it must be a mistake or you know it's just a sort of fantasy but it soon became clear that they really meant social engineering. They’d taken this property developers report and it's a long story I could go into it in great detail but once we realized the extent of the threat. Actually I was involved with a group called Haringey Solidarity Group, a radical activist group and we had a small discussion and said let's do some anti gentrification leaflets this and then I was saying wait a minute we need something on a much bigger scale than just a few people handing out a few leaflets. Why don’t we call a meeting of people in Tottenham, groups in Tottenham. We thought we might get 10 - 15 people; we got 40 people to a kind of an open meeting just to say what should we do about all these plans that the council and spurs have and other developers and it was agreed to organize a conference and that's where Our Tottenham was launched at this conference with about 30 or 40 different organizations participating. So I think we realized that we needed something on quite a substantial scale if we're going to challenge you know effectively the government the Mayor of London Tottenham, the local council and big property developers. So that's how it kicked off if you like.

MB I’d just like to say that I’m glad Our Tottenham has been founded, because it is a massive enemy that we are taking on. Hugely resourced people; the council, Spurs, all the property developers, super national, international entities or whatever nice way you want to describe them. Our Tottenham is not just that an anti-Spurs an anti-gentrification group, it’s positive about Tottenham, about the parks like I’m involved in. Bringing together people that provide luncheon clubs in functions, people supporting vulnerable, elderly people. Bringing together, welcoming migrant community within the Tottenham area. See when you think of Our Tottenham you might think of those angry voices of Dave Morris and Martin Ball stood somewhere on a cold Tottenham street complaining about something. Well actually remember there's a wider range of people involved in that and that's the great strength of the organisation and its survival because it is made up of many organizations across policy and across a lot of other issues, so it's a great thing that we have formed it.

MP OK, thank you for that Martin. moving on from that in terms of just not taking a negative view on things. Do you want to talk about one or two of the positive developments we've been involved with?

MB Well, one of the good things that we did in Down Lane Park is when the council came to take the children's playground. To take children playground, because that's the southern bit closest to Tottenham Hale station. You can imagine we said that no in rather stronger terms than I'm putting it now and we went around the community collecting about 600 signatures which is no mean feat as you know, because it’s actually hard to get those signatures out of people. So we actually put a stop to their plans to take the park because it was closest to Tottenham Hale in the epicentre of their Tottenham Hale war zone as the Director of Regeneration referred to Tottenham on the infamous bus tour for the new councillors elected after 2014, referred to Tottenham as looking like a war zone. They declared war on Tottenham, and they wanted demolished parts at Tottenham and Spurs have of course been buying up, as the book says, through their Bahamas registered complete lots of properties along the high road along White's Hart Lane and lots of properties that they are looking to develop now. And if you want to really go in to the detail there is a website called Private Eye, which details overseas property investments and if you obviously just type in N17 a lot of Spurs properties will come up, land that they are assembling and all the rest of it. So we've done some really good things in terms of saving the park. Getting some proper investments to the park pockets and building trust protection for the park. That's one way in which my own organisation that’s fought to protect green space and to get in some new investment. We've got in some new playgrounds equipment we’ve want. Before these playgrounds they wanted to build flats and this was the only way to cross subsidize and by the community making this stand, we actually said no we want to protect this park, we want this green space. Not just for us, but for the thousands of people you want to bring to the area as well. They will need green space and we’ve got a proper decent park there for them. So that is just one way, there are many other ways, but that is just one example.

DM Yeah we actually organized a whole range of conferences in the first couple of years of the Our Tottenham network and one of them was specifically on how to have our own plans for our neighbourhoods and what we want to see, what we want to see protected, what we want to see improved and we were able to draw on a whole wide range of fantastic examples. Friends of parks groups are particularly good examples of people mobilizing to protect and improve their local green spaces. Community centres, we helped to develop a community centres network to protect community centres, some of which are under threat in Tottenham. Wards Corner, there are people fighting to save certain facilities, but then they come up with their own plans and the Wards Corner Coalition at Seven Sisters have been campaigning for ten years to protect an indoor market a Latin American market and a historic building and they come up with their own community plan which has got planning permission. They just need 50 million pounds in order to buy up the site from a property developer who the council have been working with to demolish the site.

So whenever the council come up with something bad, so you know hopefully the local community can come up with something good and there's plenty of good examples. The most recent I think is Tottenham's only hospital site is St Anne’s Hospital in South Tottenham and it's quite run down and basically the owners of the site, which is the NHS, but it's the mental health section want to sell off two-thirds of the site for basically luxury housing. But now there's been a big effort to try and buy the site for the community, 100 percent affordable genuinely affordable housing and additional facilities, community facilities and alternative health facilities and green space. And so on and actually this is getting quite a lot of publicity beyond Tottenham, because it's a very great example it will be run cooperatively and they have set up a Land Trust. So a Land Trust is where people club to get them to say instead of selling that land to an individual or a speculator, sell it to the community and it remains community controlled forever.

So there's lots of positive examples and we all know them in this room. You know you may have your own examples of where communities have mobilised their own plans. And that it's true if you're just anti, anti, anti, it's kind of easy you know for the authorities to kind of marginalize you, because they're always pretending that what they're doing is positive. Yeah, so we have to say no, actually it's a load of crap, but if you keep saying that then the community kind of thinks well there's no alternative. So it's really important to have an alternative vision about what we want to see with our empowered communities.

MP OK thank you Dave. So moving more particularly on to the stadium development in Tottenham. When I started my research, I couldn't see any reason why sports led regeneration why there was any negatives in it really and this was originally to do with the development in East Manchester of the Commonwealth Stadium as it was and doing a little bit of research in relation to that, realized there were some issues that kind of local people

Had. In fact the developments were generally see to be quite positive for the local community but there were still quite a lot of issues there. In relation to the Spurs stadium, are you against the stadium development, per se?

MB Actually I can say I'm not, but if you go back to a cabinet council meeting in December 2015 you will find I am on the record stating my view that I'm glad Spurs stay in the borough. Although the consequence of Spurs staying in the borough has been massive demolitions already. Just on the site of where the new stadium is, before recent times there was a trading estate just up near where the stadium is, so there's lots of houses and a trading estate, several hundred businesses removed from there. So when we talk about protecting businesses at the Peacock Estate and businesses, shop traders along the High Road, we've already witnessed hundreds of businesses being moved out of the area and we can’t get down to the detail of what's been happening to people on the Love Lane estate or where other people are being moved out, but certainly the impact of Spurs already. And I’ve brought, just on the impact of Spurs, you may have gone down the Tottenham High Road, very slowly now, because Spurs have been granted a whole lame to themselves [sound of shaking something], because of the stadium being so close to the High Road. So this is some dust from the pavement, just there outside the Spurs shop, one of the many properties they bought with their Bahamas property company. So that's the sort of dirt and you could say it’s the Tottenham High Road, it’s the A10, it’s going to be a bit dirty Martin, you’re quite right, but not the sort of dirt that’s spread around over there [shows jar of dirt collected]. So we've got a very dirty place, a very bruised and battered community.

You may have read in the pamphlets about some of the historic buildings that have been demolished and this is a very short introduction to the two hundred photographs I took of those buildings being demolished over one weekend. This is the little bit that I saved of one of the buildings. I think that’s the red building as you might guess from the colour of the brick and this a little bit here is from I think it was the pub, Valentino's, if you went down there a boogie and a pint or a cocktail or something, if you go back as far as that. There's a third building and I haven’t got a bit of that, the Dispensary building, but actually thanks to Spurs’ foresight and their great concern for the heritage and future of Tottenham they knocked down, they saved a part of it. They’ve saved the front a name and it’s carefully packaged in a warehouse somewhere waiting to come back to the Tottenham Museum. They created their own Tottenham Elgin Marbels. They saved a bit of an historic building they knocked down and in the future you can pay good money to go and see what you could have seen on a perfectly good building at one time. So the impact of this stadium building already is destruction of historical buildings, four locally listed buildings. OK, they put a lot of money in to Grade 2 listed buildings further up, but I think even they thought Haringey Council couldn’t give them their wish, which they couldn’t. There's been demolition of existing building site and houses there's also the existing threat toward the existing houses from the noise, the dust, the pollution. From a quite serious factory that the people of Tottenham on the front line that Lyn Garner and xxxx are facing because tonight, I don't if you know, to help Spurs Haringey Council in the many ways that they have helped Spurs, granted them 24-hour working. They can work on that Stadium 24 hours a day, seven days a week so that they can build their stadium in time. That's what's happened.

DM Yes, a lot of local people are obviously Spurs supporters. I’ve been a Spurs supporter all my life, but you know you have to separate the team, which came from the community originally when these kinda clubs got set up they were clubs, I don’t know if they had a membership, but they were seen as part of the community and most of the footballers would have been from the community. So we have to separate that from the business which is a ruthless money-making concern, making as much money out of footballers as they can. So I mean a good example of this is when the Spurs were applying for you know permission to build a new stadium, planning permission, a lot of the local businesses that Martin referred to campaigned or lobbied or put up posters in their in their shop windows supporting Spurs, because it was seen as an integral part of the community and you know they little realised that you know that once they got planning permission Spurs would turn on them and say well actually all this area close by the stadium is going to be prime development land and that's why we've started buying up properties throughout the area so they felt very betrayed by five I suppose. We actually had a meeting with Spurs with the, I dunno if it's in the book?

MP Yes

DM Have you all got a copy of the book? A few people. Ok. It will save go through all the all good bits of the book, all the great bits of the book. But basically, we [Our Tottenham] got written to by one of the directors of Spurs saying why don't we have a meeting. Our Tottenham and Spurs have a joint meeting, so we met a couple of their board of Directors in their boardroom in the ground and we put our demands and we basically said you know you should be condemning the associated development outside of your ground. We made it clear we weren't against the actual Spurs improving their ground but we were against the associated threats to local council estates and local business. So we asked them to condemn any threats to those, but of course they were already buying up bits of those to make money out of the land and we also asked them to put a hundred million pounds into the local community. Arsenal had to put in sixty million pounds I think originally from planning gain. Spurs and the council agreed seventeen million pounds. We thought that was a very small amount considering this massive stadium development. But once they had all the permissions in place they had this Olympic Stadium threat to the council; that they were going to move to East London, shows how committed they are to the to the area. They used that as a bargaining point to scare the council into actually quashing that seventeen million pounds planning gain, section 106 monies, that was supposed to go into the local community to compensate for this new development and increase size and all that kind of stuff. So actually all their obligations got wiped out and they claimed, Tottenham, that they were too poor to put money in to the community. They are the 13th richest club in the world as far as we understand, football club. And I've just found out today, in the Evening Standard of all places. Daniel Levy who's his he, does he own Spurs?

MP He’s Chairman.

DM At the same time they were saying they were too poor to pay that seventeen million pounds community, his pay from Spurs jumped from two point eight four million a year. That’s pretty good going already in 2015-16, to six million pounds a year the following year so you can see where the money's going to in the club. It's not going into the community it's not even going into the fans pockets. The fans are fleeced and it’s exploitive just like everybody else when it comes to the business. So you have to separate the team and the enjoyment of football from the big business that's behind what's going on with these big clubs and you even have to separate the fans and the people that come to watch the matches. In fact we had a meeting with them as well, because the chair of the supporters club had expressed concerns about the effects of Spurs stadium development on the surrounding communities. So we had a joint meeting with them, but you know they were kind of trying to they'd been caught in between two stools really. They had to be you know, they felt they had to be loyal to the club and the business, whilst expressing concern about potential damage to the local communities.

MP OK, I think it was the Tottenham Hotspur Supporters Trust that you had the meeting with, wasn’t it?

DM The Supporters Trust, yes.

MP And they obviously represent their members views I guess. Looking forwards, going forward, are there ways that you could see perhaps, set in terms of the council with the new council elections coming up, and perhaps even the football club, once it gets installed in the new stadium, which you know may or may not be at the start the season, more positive relations. Are there things that the council or the football could club could do, to make things work better with the community?

MB Well they can stop 24-hour working, they can stop polluting the atmosphere they could instead give some money. They can stop pretending they're doing great things for the community based on all of the public subsidies they've got. If they give back the money they've had to improve the pavements they’ve damaged. They could return the bit of the Tottenham High Road. They could possibly invest in some conservation projects in the area, not just showcasing their own projects. They could, heavens forbid, they could provide some council housing. The rest they could do a lot more. Now is there any likelihood of that happening? Well with this runaway beast having been fed all the millions of public money and we've got all of these privileges all of the planning permissions, I don't see it. I mean there will be changes in Haringey Council. They may not amount to as much as the Evening Standard might like to scare monger or portray it's happening.

The reality is from Our Tottenham and groups like that, we've got to make the best effort that we can. Long term? Well, Spurs don’t want to improve their relationship with the local community, because long term what is their agenda? It’s to clear that community out of the way. Those houses along Park Lane, currently living in the shadow of a wall, a bank of sea containers. Like sea containers outside the front house. Somebody said I didn’t know going down Tottenham, it was like the docks of old. There is this row sea containers, supposedly protecting people from the noise that goes across or the dust that doesn’t come around. And there may be better relationships between the community and Our Tottenham, between the council and Our Tottenham, because of course some of the people in the Our Tottenham movement and campaigns have gone on to be selected as Labour. I don't make any party political point on that, as you well know Haringey is a one party Labour state so that’s the attention there and the activists come and go. So there may be improvement in terms of there may be a better understanding. There may be less willingness to give in to contributions they've got to make it. There may be some row-back. There may be some scope to protect the local state, because of what has happened. But of course what has happened is that since the Spurs beast was unleashed, upon top of that Haringey invited in a new big beast, Lend Lease, who of course wanted to do the HDV, the Haringey Development Vehicle. I won't go through that titanic battle between a community, which is a great example of how organizations can defeat large organizations.

One of the interesting things is that in spurs buying up all of the land with the use of their Bahamas companies, keeping your eyes on that register, with use of the FOI, is that part of the land they bought off, and where they currently mixing cement and trucks going backwards and forwards and stuff, they now actually want to develop that themselves with their own scheme. Alas, that is what is called the High Road West, Q4, the Love Lane Estate is in that master plan. So Spurs want to go ahead and develop a plot in a section of the High Road West scheme which Lend Lease have been given permission to develop themselves. So we have obviously developers at war. Where a council has made one promise to one developer it's fed another developer and that other developer is now thinking actually I'm gonna slice up an even bigger section from Tottenham for my profit making. So surprise, surprise, the counsellor supporting them, Lend Lease. Well not officially supporting them of course, objecting to the Spurs development and of course the GLA who of course have plenty of public money to slush into their developer schemes, are also in opposition to that. So look out for less of the community versus Spurs and Lend Lease versus Spurs over a development just north of White Hart Lane railway station and it’s still called White Hart Lane station at the moment. As you might know, as part of the great walkway scheme in between Spurs on the High Road a new station is being built, which may eventually be bought, the naming rights might be bought off by a well-known large property owner and well known sports club in the area. So you've got two developers at war so that's the real war to look out for. Our relationships, as I once said with Haringey council, can't but fail to improve and even the conflict between us and hopefully the community will get a better deal from the council than it has so far.

MP OK, one last plug for the book and lots of students who I think have been involved in Our Tottenham over that period of time, from UCL, from Birkbeck and other academic institutions. Has that involvement, having those academic institutions, people involved, academics and students how has that assisted the Our Tottenham network? A difficult one maybe?

DM It was great when Mark took the minutes of meeting, so that was really helpful. Yeah I dunno, it’s a difficult question. You know we when we started there was a great deal of enthusiasm, lots of groups involved we having big meetings and then you kind of after two or three years because we're fighting such a you know big enemy that you know kind of trying to ignore any kind of opposition and pretend there isn't any. You know it gets quite a bit of a long slog, so you know the meetings are not as strong as they were before, but at the same time different campaigns and initiatives are still coming up in different parts of Tottenham and they link through throughout Tottenham But one of the things that we did do is, because of our contacts with a couple of universities were in planning departments, student started to come to the meetings and offer their skills when we were kind of crafting policy challenges to the borough-wide planning you know documents and so on so that that was very helpful because obviously academics have skills that not everybody has and they may have time if they're on a course to contribute in that way so that's useful. And certainly this this book has been very well received in Tottenham, but obviously we need a lot more copies. We've only got you know fifty copies in circulation at the moment I think in Tottenham. So it’s definitely worth reprinting. Yeah.

MB Can I just say something? Absolutely, of course it's been hugely beneficial to have academics involved, because of the wider understanding, greater knowledge, the wider knowledge, the connections with sports-led development schemes in America, community campaigning elsewhere across the world. So it's actually vital, particularly as the council wheels out its experts all the time and in the planning, the local planning thing. I have no idea about planning regulations and stuff, but if somebody tells me I can certainly go and put on a good show as to pretend I know about it, so it’s enormously beneficial in that respect. One of the key things as well has been we’ve educated ourselves. We’ve upskilled ourselves in terms of our campaigning tactics in our knowledge. We’ve shown a willingness, a willingness people would say was rather strange to go through these thousands of pages a council reports looking for the detail. Looking on the website for property being bought through Bahamas. Using Freedom of Information requests, challenging the council and others further away and actually ensuring that all the bits of information we've got, we've got out to journalists, to academics, people that can carry our message from a small business corner of north Tottenham that we are in to a wider audience and events like tonight with other people from around London, more receptors, not obsessed about Tottenham. I mean I'm doubly obsessed here. I’m not sure if Mark knows this, the area in Manchester where the new stadium is, I used to play on as a kid, before I got socially cleansed out of Manchester, so they’re following me around. It’s obviously a bad sign when I arrive. [Inaudible]

We are determined to stay in our community and that's why we've taught ourselves all of these things that enable us to try to take on an organization that's resourced by our money, a council and that actually supposedly acts in our name and yet rarely does and the involvement of academics, of students within enthusiasm, fresh eyes and new perspectives and actually ourselves looking to use all of the things we’ve become quite good at like media interviews, doing public meetings, putting together petitions and practice we've had putting together protests outside Haringey council and we must be the textbook case.

MP OK, thank you very much. So enough conversation between ourselves, any questions on some fairly perhaps provocative things.

Click here for a transcript of the Q&A.

Sunday, 15 April 2018

Transcript of "Tottenham's Trojan Horse?" Q&A from book launch at Housmans Bookshop

A transcript of questions taken from the audience (Q) and answered by Mark Panton (MP), Dave Morris (DM) and Martin Ball (MB) is below. Click here for a transcript of the conversation part of the event. The event was hosted at Housmans Bookshop in London on April 4 2018. A film of the Q&A is here and an audio recording of the whole event is here.

Click here for more information about "Tottenham's Trojan Horse?" including reviews, upcoming events and how to buy or borrow it.


Q             I mean obviously there’s no walk-way there, but they got away with it there (Arsenal stadium) .  That was definitely sports-led ala Americana and I was a mature student in the Metropolitan University on Holloway Road and it must have been the same 24 hour working and you could see it going up and up if you missed 2 days in the college and so I’d like to know was there any study done on that because it is obviously very relevant, not being far away.

MP         So the question on the Arsenal development, the person who supervised my thesis, my PhD is a chap called Dr Geoff Walters and if you wait until the end I can try to dig out some sort of reference for you and he did his thesis on the development of the Arsenal stadium.  They being in Islington and Islington maybe being a bit wiser to the value of property in that borough, as far as my understanding goes they did pay a section 106 contribution of something up to £60 million.  It may not have reached that amount.  A lot of that was to do away with the re-cycling plant which I think was nearby to the stadium and to remove that and reposition it elsewhere and they didn’t end up doing anything to Holloway Road station, which was part of the original plans I think, which was to relieve the congestion that is caused in that area.  Well obviously this is going to be a major issue for Tottenham, for the football club.  Anybody who goes to games there as Tottenham supporters will know that with a capacity as it is at the moment of something like 41,000, it is very difficult to get people in and out of the area.  Although there is talk of re-vamped train services, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.  But there are other studies on Arsenal.

DM         Where they've got the stadium I used to work in the post office, the sorting office there, Queensland Road that was demolished to build the new stadium I think.  For 6 years I worked as a postman in Islington so I know the area quite well but I would say that yeah I mean I think lots of these major developments sports-led developments have the same problems but also it's not just sports-led.  Developers are getting increasingly confident that they can build bigger and bigger developments and they are less and less about what the community needs.  They are about luxury housing, corporate malls core values and anything that can make maximum profits and it’s happening all over London it's lots of smaller ones that are just about just the same problems they're not developing in London in a way that is for the benefit of the people that live here so we have to get organized in every community in every borough in London to assert our rights.  We have to have strong residence groups and campaign groups and networks and there is actually a London wide network called Just Space and they have regular conferences, they have different kind of campaign groups and residence groups from all over London attending, so we're trying to build up a London-wide kind of movement of opposition to this kind of top-down obnoxious developments, of which Spurs is just a particularly bad example.

Q             I live on the other side of Haringey.  I mean perhaps you might give some indication of how we might vote; there that's a side question.  I don't know with the comparison with your experience with both Arsenal and spurs that you couldn't make some sort of comparison and my limited knowledge would put Arsenal way ahead of Spurs historically and Spurs dissociation from the community, except as a sort of send the supporters along and let them spend the money but I mean you may know that more.  Okay, so that's on history and I think that sort of comparison do a good thing to do and maybe come out with a lack of trust in the first place in Spurs to do anything that might be you that useful.  The second minor thing is you were talking about sort of money making or something you know.  I wonder whether the sports clubs of present are not there just to make a big loss which they leave on…   Some people will make a lot of money like say Manchester United owners will make a lot of money.  The owners at West Ham will probably make a lot of money and will leave the clubs themselves with a helluva lot of debt.  So it’s just a bit careful about let’s hope that Spurs makes money, because that needs a bit more investigation as to who exactly is going to make the money doing what.

MP         Trying to summarise those points.  In terms of the money coming in to football now, most clubs, over the last few years there has been so much money coming in from TV revenue that what we saw previously was quite a few clubs going out of business and over-reaching themselves.  Certainly in the Premier League now a lot of clubs are declaring profits and it’s just how much profit.  Then you need to look at the books to see where that is going.  Obviously Daniel Levy awarded himself a considerable increase and he’s now paying himself £6 million per year.  I’m sure he’s worth that and other CEOs at other football clubs are doing something similar. 
In terms of their contribution to the community, a lot of football clubs have unfortunately in my view outsourced their corporate social responsibility in that they have charitable foundations which themselves rely on government money or local authority money to fund what they do.  That's not to say they don't do good work going into the you know council estates and other difficult areas, but they use that in their planning requests and say look you know we don’t need to put more money in, we're already putting four million in through our foundation and so they use it strategically.

Q             Is that Tottenham or Arsenal?

MP         I think both of those clubs would have similar sort of figures that their foundations do.  They have slightly different structures because actually Arsenal’s, I think Arsenal’s and Aston Villa’s are the two clubs which  haven't organized separate charitable foundations .  They are still part of the club.  Though they do rely on, you know when they're talking about the amount of money which is the equivalent money coming in from government schemes and the Premier League and their Kicks Foundation, they are taking part in that somebody knows a lot of money.

DM         Do you want to say something about grass roots football, kids playing in their local park and how they are struggling.

MP         Overall in the Premier League as everybody knows there is a lot of money coming in, but grass roots football, park pitches, we know it from kids’ games being cancelled recently because of the lack of investment in football pitches at a lower level.  So you see a lot of money coming into the Premier League at the highest level and again the idea of it trickling down.  Trickle-down economics, you know it doesn’t trickle down very far.

MB         I’m not going to say who to vote for, only to make a reference to the one-party state of Haringey.  What you should do is ask the candidates will in the future they be honest about their hospitality will they declare all of the hospitality.  Not what’s above 25 pounds or 50 pounds.  Will they refuse to go on developer sponsored jollies to the South of France for the MIPIN conference because that has been one of the little side stories of the developers taking over of Tottenham, is the number of counsellors that have had trips to the Spurs, no offence Dave, probably for a better tea or coffee than you got.

DM         We didn’t get any.

MB         These people have certainly had lunch.  Claire Kober had a gift of a child's sports strip.  Alan Strickland the member for regeneration, housing and something else.  Oh regulation of course.  What did he get?  He got a trip to see an NFL, gridiron American football at Wembley; because of course it was important for him to be able to tell us via Twitter just how fantastic it would be when American football comes to White Hart Lane.  And of course both Kober and Strickland and a number of other people have taken money from developers including Spurs sponsorship money to go to MIPIN in the South of France for the MIPIN developers’ conference.  So one of the key things is asking will you please show some integrity if elected and if you are going to meet with developers why does it have to involve lunch?  Why does it have to involve dinner?  Why can't it just involve water, like we’ve got at the front here?   And that's the key thing hopefully about the new style of Haringey politics is that people will have hopefully learned lesson from what has happened to the  people before them but obviously show some greater integrity and not pretend as they said to me when I challenged them on taking money from people like Spurs and to go to the south of France and then actually giving planning permissions and giving large amounts of public money to them to (indecipherable) and they said oh Martin he said, and this is where I need clever people like Mark to be involved to help me explain this, they said the difference is we go to MIPIN as a land owning  authority.  When we sit down here in Haringey we are the planning authority and that's a big difference.  I really do need somebody clever to explain that to me.

Q             I'm a Spurs fan I've been going since October 1969 and have our missed many game since then?  Very few.  I think your new ground is brilliant.  It’s brilliant for the club, it's brilliant for the area and I'm really excited to go next season and it will propel Tottenham even further in to competing in the Champions League and being the winning club I want to support, so perhaps I am  the wrong meeting.  I bought your book anyway, because I am interested in the points of view.  Of course councils are incompetent and corrupt, but as far as Tottenham’s ground is concerned then I think it is a great thing for the club and the area and I hope it’s going to bring us greater success.  Thanks.

MP         Thanks very much for Coming along.  I have tried to engage with Spurs supporters and even offered to attend at a Supporters Trust meeting, but was told, I understand that maybe there are other things that supporters have got on their mind such as securing seats and the new stadium and things, but it is good to have someone like yourself along here.

Q             Well I would imagine that the Trust would be very happy to speak to you, because Martin Cloake who is the Chair is a friend of mine, has extremely left-wing views of everything and would be sympathetic to your view point.

MP         I have spoken directly with Martin, it’s just I think it’s relatively low down the agenda. 

DM         We had a joint meeting with the supporter’s trust in the sports centre opposite football ground and it was a good constructive meeting.  I think were three or four from the supporter’s trust and three or four of us from Our Tottenham.  You know they are as I said before in a difficult position because they're trying to get more influence with the Spurs hierarchy who had to some extent frozen them out, but seemed to have cozied up to them a bit more recently and I think the fact that we exist and we had a meeting with the supporter’s trust, Spurs actually realised we ought to be actually in better relations with our own supporters or they're going to turn on us so yeah obviously supporters are just ordinary people like us and anything we can do to work with you know the supporters of Tottenham wherever they're from because also they're gonna have their own issues wherever they live.  Probably not so many people from Tottenham can afford to buy tickets at the ground anymore, but wherever people live there are going to be similar issues of having to defend our public facilities, our green spaces, stand up for our communities and so on. 

Q             I happen to live near Arsenal and I don’t want to take any football position on it, I know because the residents of the area are very upset with Arsenal, because they broke many of their planning promises about underground parking, about replacing Holloway (Road tube station) and I don't think Tottenham have done that yet, perhaps they will in the future I think if you talk to the residents around Arsenal they may regard the stadium as a good thing overall but they certainly feel let down by the club I believe.

MP         Any more questions?

Q             I’m a Haringey activist against the HDV.  I haven’t been directly involved with Tottenham, but this is very interesting.  I wanted to ask a question, my question is about whether the walkway is still going to happen?  I’m not clear whether that is going to happen and also the national organisation, I was only thinking yesterday, I’ve been watching a film on social housing, social cleansing on the BBC, which I recorded and I watched that yesterday.  A very good film.  And the thing that crossed my mind really is that this is going on all over the country.  Big business is very powerful and what we desperately really need is that we know what's going on elsewhere, that if needed we can support other people and they support us and so on.  We really need to all know what is going on so that big business can’t do Trojan horses without people knowing.  People will know in future.  So that’s the other thing, I think that’s really important. 

MB         On the walkway, I assume the walkway is happening because on the very latest Haringey press release  there is a super picture of this super walkway with the new facilities in it including the public square and that was the only thing me and Dave got excited about because it created  a place where we could have a bit of dissent.  But it certainly will happen.  You remember of course there's already a walkway between White Hart Lane station and highway it's called what's called White Hart Lane but there’s also the Whitehall Street as well.  So there's a number of routes through.  What of course I think the idea of the walkway is you go straight from the new station which is further south than the existing one with the new glass-fronted all along, they're being built now and then you'll be able to sweep straight down past the climbing frames and gather for some pre-match entertainment maybe in the square and all of the chains along the side and all the rest of it.  No doubt banners across and all the rest of it.  So there's still that existing sort of plan and I can tell you that only last week, I think it was last week Lendlease, who are the preferred developer on the Love Lane Estate, code-named High Road West scheme, I’ve been out there leafleting, telling people that these are the people that are going to be deciding their destinies and already talking about various master planning consultation events.  Of all sorts of activities building up towards a planning application at some point later in the year.  The book has the details that all of that area is under a demolition notice and there's seven year demolition notice so the people do know in the shops are aware in that sort of sense.  Lend lease don’t just deliver their leaflet about how wonderful  we're going to make your houses in this new walkway, they decided to deliver it to the other side of the new stadium on the Northumberland Park Estate which of course is where they were rebuffed in terms of getting their development vehicle sort of their permission sort of right, so you can certainly see they've got ambitions not just to have a walkway from the spurs stadium to White Hart Lane whatever that's called whenever it’s built, but also the other way down from the stadium towards Northumberland Park.  So as far as they're concerned yes it is one of the many things that they try to tell you it's going to be brilliant about the new landscape and I mean the facilities at the ground are obviously going to be first class.   There's no doubt about that it's going to be some fantastic entertainment and for those was living in it we might have to experience this every day of the year in terms of the stuff but they certainly the walkway that is the sort of thing I think they want.  They want to create that shopping center really like a 1960 shopping mall precinct as far as I'm concerned, but it's one of their ambitions.

MP         One last question.

Q             They were very happy days at Spurs at the 517 Club.  Whenever Spurs lost, they came and drank themselves senseless out of sheer merriment for the power of the opposition.  I just wonder, Spurs management replied to that by putting up the prices.  I wonder with these success of Spurs at the moment they are actually putting down the prices?

MP         No, I think the new season ticket prices, there are complaints from existing season ticket holders about the price of the new tickets. 

Q             There was joke that it was cheaper to go to watch the Cameroons than it was to go to watch Spurs. 

MP         On that, we will close it.